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Difference between revisions of "User talk:Eugene"

(Angel: what are your thoughts on comments sections at ends of pages?)
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  Even if every single moment in a bike collective was filled with people striving toward a safer space as best they could, there would still be a need for WTF night because the people who show up couldn't be expected to know that. Until I understood that, I spent a long time feeling uncomfortable about the concept of WTF nights because I believed (and continue to believe, actually) that it puts the burden of the work of thinking about issues surrounding equality largely on the hosts of the WTF nights, and then the rest of the collective often only thinks about safer spaces at their convenience, when I'd rather see every single member of a collective taking that burden on together and making every moment as much of a safer space as WTF nights.  
 
  Even if every single moment in a bike collective was filled with people striving toward a safer space as best they could, there would still be a need for WTF night because the people who show up couldn't be expected to know that. Until I understood that, I spent a long time feeling uncomfortable about the concept of WTF nights because I believed (and continue to believe, actually) that it puts the burden of the work of thinking about issues surrounding equality largely on the hosts of the WTF nights, and then the rest of the collective often only thinks about safer spaces at their convenience, when I'd rather see every single member of a collective taking that burden on together and making every moment as much of a safer space as WTF nights.  
 
::I have usually basically been the only cis woman at my collectives who hasn't devoted energy to women and trans nights at some point.  (I say that, but I'm positive I've thought about it a lot more than a lot of men at those same bike collectives, plus I can visit.)  Not because they're not valuable, which they certainly are, but because I felt the need to focus on the other shifts.  I wasn't always able to articulate my qualms, but they're basically summarized by my quote above.  I feel that the wiki entry on patriarchy could use a little more balance as it expands.  Which is to say!  Basically I would really really love to have an ongoing conversation!  In which we talk about these things and maybe see if we can even figure out ways to move beyond the W&T/etc mold.  I know not all collectives or all people at all collectives are ready for this.  My first collective was in a college town and was having 201-level conversations about this sort of thing, and the one here in Portland was mostly (with at least one exception) still getting to the point where they were starting to have 101-level conversations when I left last year.  Which is to say, I'm looking forward to hearing more about the successes and failures of the wtf/etc nights (and moving beyond patriarchy the rest of the time, too) that you've been a part of, because I know it doesn't work the same way everywhere and I'm looking forward to an ongoing discussion, if you're interested.--[[User:Angel|Angel York]] ([[User talk:Angel|talk]]) 19:19, 19 February 2016 (PST)
 
::I have usually basically been the only cis woman at my collectives who hasn't devoted energy to women and trans nights at some point.  (I say that, but I'm positive I've thought about it a lot more than a lot of men at those same bike collectives, plus I can visit.)  Not because they're not valuable, which they certainly are, but because I felt the need to focus on the other shifts.  I wasn't always able to articulate my qualms, but they're basically summarized by my quote above.  I feel that the wiki entry on patriarchy could use a little more balance as it expands.  Which is to say!  Basically I would really really love to have an ongoing conversation!  In which we talk about these things and maybe see if we can even figure out ways to move beyond the W&T/etc mold.  I know not all collectives or all people at all collectives are ready for this.  My first collective was in a college town and was having 201-level conversations about this sort of thing, and the one here in Portland was mostly (with at least one exception) still getting to the point where they were starting to have 101-level conversations when I left last year.  Which is to say, I'm looking forward to hearing more about the successes and failures of the wtf/etc nights (and moving beyond patriarchy the rest of the time, too) that you've been a part of, because I know it doesn't work the same way everywhere and I'm looking forward to an ongoing discussion, if you're interested.--[[User:Angel|Angel York]] ([[User talk:Angel|talk]]) 19:19, 19 February 2016 (PST)
 +
====comments sections on pages====
 
Hi Eugene!  I should start by saying thanks for moving my bullet points to the patriarchy page!  I was pleased that you thought it was useful there.  I'm writing because I want to talk about comments sections.  I'm used to contributing to a wiki that has "comments" sections at the end of any wiki page where people want to leave a public comment, and coming from that background, I see the "talk" section as more of a back and forth area for talking about the nuts and bolts of any given page.  It has been fun having slightly less public conversations in the user talk section, but I did actually intentionally intend for my comment (the one that got moved from W&T to W&T talk) to be left in a comments section of the W&T programs page.  I figure we are coming from different wiki standards but we get to figure out how we want to do it here, so I'm thinking about this from the perspective of what I think would be most useful for the bike collectives wiki. I see the wiki as a collaboration of people who care about bike collectives and share relevant experiences and knowledge with other people who care about bike collectives. Thinking about this from that perspective, I see a place for public comments sections.  I didn't want to put the comment section back without seeing how you felt.  Do you have strong feelings on this, or was it an impulse to standardize?  Having seen it in action, I see a lot of value in having public comments sections, so I'm hoping that it was an impulse to standardize, but if you do have a strong preference, I'd love to hear more.  --[[User:Angel|Angel York]] ([[User talk:Angel|talk]]) 13:05, 25 February 2016 (PST)
 
Hi Eugene!  I should start by saying thanks for moving my bullet points to the patriarchy page!  I was pleased that you thought it was useful there.  I'm writing because I want to talk about comments sections.  I'm used to contributing to a wiki that has "comments" sections at the end of any wiki page where people want to leave a public comment, and coming from that background, I see the "talk" section as more of a back and forth area for talking about the nuts and bolts of any given page.  It has been fun having slightly less public conversations in the user talk section, but I did actually intentionally intend for my comment (the one that got moved from W&T to W&T talk) to be left in a comments section of the W&T programs page.  I figure we are coming from different wiki standards but we get to figure out how we want to do it here, so I'm thinking about this from the perspective of what I think would be most useful for the bike collectives wiki. I see the wiki as a collaboration of people who care about bike collectives and share relevant experiences and knowledge with other people who care about bike collectives. Thinking about this from that perspective, I see a place for public comments sections.  I didn't want to put the comment section back without seeing how you felt.  Do you have strong feelings on this, or was it an impulse to standardize?  Having seen it in action, I see a lot of value in having public comments sections, so I'm hoping that it was an impulse to standardize, but if you do have a strong preference, I'd love to hear more.  --[[User:Angel|Angel York]] ([[User talk:Angel|talk]]) 13:05, 25 February 2016 (PST)
 +
::my feelings are that it depends on the type of page/wiki to determine how useful versus cluttered the page would look with a comments section. For pages on something like Davis Wiki or Rocwiki, it makes sense to have a comments section, since the general public likes to leave commentary, yelp-style. For something more encyclopedic it doesn't make as much sense as there isn't room for opinion. I think that it would be perfectly reasonable for you to have, instead of providing commentary, to integrate your input into either of the two pages, rather than having a separate section. It's also such that the wiki has very few users, so our comments sections would just be us talking anyway.
 +
::I hope my answer is helpful. I'm not really that concerned about it, and can see the value in a comments section, I'm just also almost always sure that the talk page is just fine for that purpose. --[[User:Eugene|Eugene]] ([[User talk:Eugene|talk]]) 14:41, 25 February 2016 (PST)
  
 
====User List By Contributions Request====
 
====User List By Contributions Request====

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Again, welcome and have fun! aNGEL yORK (talk) 09:45, 30 January 2016 (PST)
Angel! Thanks so much! I hope to have a lot of fun working with everyone. I've been developing on WikiMedia since the mid-aughts (2006, methinks) and I've been a Bike Mechanic my whole life. I'm hoping to improve the Women and Trans Programs page specifically! That sort of programming has been the focus of my life's work in the last few years, and I'd like to centralize a lot of data therein. -- Eugene (talk) 11:49, 30 January 2016 (PST)

Angel

Eugene! I didn't feel comfortable opening the main page up without checking with people who understand wikis better than me, but I made you an administrator, so you can totally change both the main page and the permissions on the main page if you want to. Thanks so much for wikiing! Also, thanks for inspiring me to seed my user page. --aNGEL yORK (talk) 11:25, 14 February 2016 (PST)

P.S. Before we had a million spam bots signing up, you didn't used to need to get approved by anyone to have an account. Which is why I didn't have a page automatically created for me when I signed up. --aNGEL yORK (talk) 11:27, 14 February 2016 (PST)

What happens if I check the "bot" privilege box? Does that turn you into a bot? I can check it if you want. I contacted Godwin because I'd expect that he'll either know about that bug or will know who will. He's the one who does the bikecollectives.org website. Thank you for all the work you've been doing on the wiki! --Angel York (talk) 14:52, 15 February 2016 (PST)

Eugene! I was going to leave a comment in the patriarchy page but I wasn't sure if you'd see it there and you're probably the only one who would be looking right now. I left a comment on the W&T programs page that included the following paragraph:
Even if every single moment in a bike collective was filled with people striving toward a safer space as best they could, there would still be a need for WTF night because the people who show up couldn't be expected to know that. Until I understood that, I spent a long time feeling uncomfortable about the concept of WTF nights because I believed (and continue to believe, actually) that it puts the burden of the work of thinking about issues surrounding equality largely on the hosts of the WTF nights, and then the rest of the collective often only thinks about safer spaces at their convenience, when I'd rather see every single member of a collective taking that burden on together and making every moment as much of a safer space as WTF nights. 
I have usually basically been the only cis woman at my collectives who hasn't devoted energy to women and trans nights at some point. (I say that, but I'm positive I've thought about it a lot more than a lot of men at those same bike collectives, plus I can visit.) Not because they're not valuable, which they certainly are, but because I felt the need to focus on the other shifts. I wasn't always able to articulate my qualms, but they're basically summarized by my quote above. I feel that the wiki entry on patriarchy could use a little more balance as it expands. Which is to say! Basically I would really really love to have an ongoing conversation! In which we talk about these things and maybe see if we can even figure out ways to move beyond the W&T/etc mold. I know not all collectives or all people at all collectives are ready for this. My first collective was in a college town and was having 201-level conversations about this sort of thing, and the one here in Portland was mostly (with at least one exception) still getting to the point where they were starting to have 101-level conversations when I left last year. Which is to say, I'm looking forward to hearing more about the successes and failures of the wtf/etc nights (and moving beyond patriarchy the rest of the time, too) that you've been a part of, because I know it doesn't work the same way everywhere and I'm looking forward to an ongoing discussion, if you're interested.--Angel York (talk) 19:19, 19 February 2016 (PST)

comments sections on pages

Hi Eugene! I should start by saying thanks for moving my bullet points to the patriarchy page! I was pleased that you thought it was useful there. I'm writing because I want to talk about comments sections. I'm used to contributing to a wiki that has "comments" sections at the end of any wiki page where people want to leave a public comment, and coming from that background, I see the "talk" section as more of a back and forth area for talking about the nuts and bolts of any given page. It has been fun having slightly less public conversations in the user talk section, but I did actually intentionally intend for my comment (the one that got moved from W&T to W&T talk) to be left in a comments section of the W&T programs page. I figure we are coming from different wiki standards but we get to figure out how we want to do it here, so I'm thinking about this from the perspective of what I think would be most useful for the bike collectives wiki. I see the wiki as a collaboration of people who care about bike collectives and share relevant experiences and knowledge with other people who care about bike collectives. Thinking about this from that perspective, I see a place for public comments sections. I didn't want to put the comment section back without seeing how you felt. Do you have strong feelings on this, or was it an impulse to standardize? Having seen it in action, I see a lot of value in having public comments sections, so I'm hoping that it was an impulse to standardize, but if you do have a strong preference, I'd love to hear more. --Angel York (talk) 13:05, 25 February 2016 (PST)

my feelings are that it depends on the type of page/wiki to determine how useful versus cluttered the page would look with a comments section. For pages on something like Davis Wiki or Rocwiki, it makes sense to have a comments section, since the general public likes to leave commentary, yelp-style. For something more encyclopedic it doesn't make as much sense as there isn't room for opinion. I think that it would be perfectly reasonable for you to have, instead of providing commentary, to integrate your input into either of the two pages, rather than having a separate section. It's also such that the wiki has very few users, so our comments sections would just be us talking anyway.
I hope my answer is helpful. I'm not really that concerned about it, and can see the value in a comments section, I'm just also almost always sure that the talk page is just fine for that purpose. --Eugene (talk) 14:41, 25 February 2016 (PST)

User List By Contributions Request

Does anyone know if we can get this sort of thing?

[1]
--Eugene (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2016 (PST)
No idea but a kind-of sort-of clunky work around is that you can look at recent changes as far back as you want. Just edit the URL. Example: https://www.bikecollectives.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=500&days=365. Also IOU a message, but it requires setting aside time for thinking and writing and I have a couple other projects keeping me busy right now, but I'm excited to get back to you at some point!--Angel York (talk) 21:37, 24 February 2016 (PST)

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